Flexible Working | Episode 4 | Recruitment and Beyond Podcast

Flexible working has become the norm following the pandemic for so many, but actually, the situation is changing, and the notion of flexible working is more complex than just working from home.

The law is changing, and there is a lot to keep up with when it comes to understanding employee and employer responsibilities.

So Natalie and Ewan discuss what flexible working actually means, what is required by law and what that means for both sides.

They also chat about the future of flexible working, what it will look like, and what employers need to be aware of.

If you have any thoughts on flexible working, send us a note or leave us a review.

Episode Transcript

Ewan:
Hi, and welcome along to episode four of our podcast, Recruitment and Beyond. I'm Ewan Anderson.

Natalie:
I'm Natalie O'Hare.

Ewan:
And today we're going to tackle the challenging subject of flexible working.

So Natalie, today we're talking about flexible working. So I guess, let's start with maybe the law, the actual law. Let's look at where we are now because I know that they changed the law at the end of 2022, didn't they? So where are we now with flexible working?

Natalie:
Flexible working has moved on as ever, and lots of further changes to come, which we will touch on.

In terms of flexible working, where we are now, it's a right, it's not a right, it's a request.

Ewan:
Okay.

Natalie:
Some people might think it's the right, but it's a request that would come from the employee with a length of service attached to that as well. So an employer would have to take that request, do some kinds of process, and then give an outcome in terms of is it acceptable or is it not? And there are seven legal reasons as to declining a flexible working request.

Ewan:
Oh, is there? So can they ask for that on day one? They can ask to have flexible work from day one?

Natalie:
Not at the moment.

Ewan:
Not at the moment, right, okay.

Natalie:
But pending changes would say that they can ask from day one.

Ewan:
Right.

Natalie:
There is no length of service. So for example, a position might be advertised and someone applies for it and then they go through the induction. And then day four they say, "I would quite like to work three days a week. I would quite like to work four days a week."

Ewan:
Okay.

Natalie:
And then a business might be like, "Oh no, we've put this out as a full-time requirement," and where do we go from here?

Ewan:
Sure.

Natalie:
And there will be two requests per year now rather than just having one at the moment, two requests in 12 months.

Ewan:
So the company needs to take that on board and they need to give a valid reason why they are accepting it or they're not, I suppose. Is that right?

Natalie:
Yeah. Some kind of business reason, whether that's maybe a demand on customers or there would be additional costings, et cetera. There are seven prescribed reasons for declining.

Ewan:
Okay. So where are we now in terms of the actual making it work, I suppose. Flexible working come in obviously because of COVID and now I think a lot of people, they almost misunderstand what flexible working means. It's not a case of working from home or not, is it? It's broader than that now, isn't it?

Natalie:
It's working from home. It's compressed hours.

Ewan:
Right.

Natalie:
It's location, it's change of hours. It's number of days worked. It's a whole variety. Shift patterns, routers, compressed hours, the lot. And I guess some businesses have found their way, but some are still, although maybe how far away from the pandemic we're still aware maybe they're still trying to find what works best for the business as well.

Ewan:
How do you find that solution I suppose? It's not a case that is going to work for everybody, is it? You've got to try and find that individual solution for each of your members of staff, is that right?

Natalie:
Absolutely. It's very individual. For example, an employee might be happy with the Monday through Friday, nine to five.

Ewan:
Simple, just like that.

Natalie:
They quite like that structure. They like that. They do not like having a two-hour lunch break or compressing their hours into four days, et cetera. They maybe need the structure. Other people are craving for that increased lunch hour so that they can go away and maybe walk their dog or do exercise, get a shower and then come back. But at the moment work is what you do. Work is no longer the location.

Ewan:
Okay. Yeah.

Natalie:
Yeah. Work is what you do. Whether that is working flexibly in a coffee shop, whether that is working at home, whether that is working in an office, whether that is working while traveling.

Ewan:
Right.

Natalie:
Work now is what you do in the output rather than the location and where you are.

Ewan:
So do you think some employers are struggling with that? Like you said, work isn't where you are, it's what you do. Have you found that as a bit of a battle for some employers just to grasp that concept?

Natalie:
Absolutely, because it's all so different for everyone. So we've got to think about customers and client demand. We've got to also think about maximizing productivity. So we need to think about actually looking on an individual basis or do we just say three days a week in the office, two days from home for everyone or do we go a step further and do we tailor that? But all of that throws up issues.

Ewan:
It does, doesn't it? I suppose if you say right, everybody's three days and two days, what about productivity for some people who really can't do that with childcare or-

Natalie:
Don't want to do that?

Ewan:
... don't want to do that.

Natalie:
Don't want work from home.

Ewan:
They want to be in four days.

Natalie:
Want to be in the office full time or those that want to be at home full time. So it's very much on an individual basis, but how does a business owner navigate through all of that?

Ewan:
Are you guys helping a lot of companies with that? Just to understand how to navigate that? How do you work that out?

Natalie:
Yeah, absolutely. And then we'll get flexible working and then we want to move to the four-day working week for example. So how do we help? So it's looking and working with business owners to find out what are the issues, what are the demands and how do we fit pieces of the jigsaw, but also on an individual basis in terms of what floats their boat, what floats their boat, what do they need, what do they, and fitting all the jigsaw without impacting customers or clients.

Ewan:
Yeah, I suppose that's the thing you've always got to keep in mind is that ultimately you're doing your job to provide a service or provide a product or whatever it is. So it has to have the end product, doesn't it?

Natalie:
Absolutely. But happy employees are your best employees.

Ewan:
Well, yes.

Natalie:
So whether that's... And we're in a very bizarre time of maybe the business is not able to give pay raises or bonuses, but actually when people are looking, certainly as well applying for jobs, they'll look at is flexible working an opportunity and that may pay more than any other benefit or any salary increase as well.

Ewan:
So you've touched on this anyway, but that takes us on to what are the benefits of this? Obviously we've gone from a scenario where everybody's sitting in the office on a regular basis to this. Now productivity is obviously key, but what are the other benefits? Why are companies saying, "Look, this is going to work for us?"

Natalie:
People are very much, maybe during COVID times they assessed their life and their personal time is much more protected than ever.

Ewan:
Okay.

Natalie:
So actually you're going to have mentally stimulated employees if they can maybe take that two hours off in the afternoon, that's maybe good for them to go and take their dog a walk. We'll get away from burnout as well in a lot of organizations as well. And it's just having that option of getting up and is today an office day? Is it a homeworking day? Can I log off because of childcare issues or those moments of child school activities? Can we make sure that we're being a parent and a good worker as well? And maybe get out to that but then I'll just log on at nighttime and that suits. So it's all about employee engagement and keeping everybody happy, but also meeting the business needs as well. So profitability is going to be better, employee engagement's going to be better and it's just going that step further.

Ewan:
Okay. So playing devil's advocate, what's the other side? What are the companies that are saying to you, "Look, flexible working's just not going to work for us." What are they saying? What's the cross and the other side of that?

Natalie:
Yeah, if I don't see you, you're not working.

Ewan:
Yeah, what's that?

Natalie:
Yeah, absolutely. We're still here.

Ewan:
If I can't see you, you're not doing any work.

Natalie:
If I can't see you then you're not working. So I guess your whole communication strategy has to be looked at. How are you keeping in touch? Also, if you have someone physically in the office, are they burnt out? Are they mentally okay? You can't really see that at home maybe. You cannot see that if you're not working the same shift pattern with them. So you're duty of care. Is someone logging on at three in the morning? Do you know that? If you're in an office or you have prescribed start and finish times, you can see that.
And it's okay, get the controls in place so that we can see who's logging on at what time.

Ewan:
Okay.

Natalie:
We can make sure productivity's being done. There is the fear of flexible working. It's out my control. I don't have the same control as a business owner. But actually if you recruit the right people and you trust them, they'll flourish in that environment.

Ewan:
And that's the thing isn't it? Trust. We talked about this before, but is that the issue here? It's not necessarily whether flexible working will work or not, it's whether you trust your employees and have you got the right team in place to work to deliver on that? Is that the case?

Natalie:
Yeah, absolutely. And they maybe have been in the past with people that have maybe taken the mickey of things or have had productivity or disciplines have been impacted by those working flexibly. It's similar to the whole dress down day. Some businesses don't like dress down because they feel a change of clothes is a change of-

Ewan:
Mindset.

Natalie:
... dynamics and mindset. And actually do we get the most out of people. But we look at the countries that dress nowadays is normal, we look at business dress now again, that's changed. So it's trusting that you have the right team.

Ewan:
Okay. Yeah. And I suppose are there companies now that are really getting this right? We've been in this now for a couple years and I've tracked a few people and they said, "I'm not sure we're quite getting it right." Do you think we are or do you think we've got a long way to go to get this right, to get this optimal working scenario where everybody feels comfortable?

Natalie:
We've still got away, I think.

Ewan:
Yeah.

Natalie:
We're getting there, but it's not just we turn the switch on for flexible working and then we turn it off again. We need to keep reviewing this by every lever and every starter that comes on. Then how do they fit into the jigsaw and how do we make sure that we're not impacting our customers and clients as well? And then what is the next thing? Where do we go from here? For me it's about, it's a slow trickle and it's making sure that we stay on the route and we stay on the train. It doesn't just start and finish. We just keep adapting.

Ewan:
And that's the thing. I suppose that was my next question is what's next? Where do we go next with this? Obviously you mentioned the changes in the law and so on and these things are going to keep coming and as we adapt and we change and we develop, these things will ultimately change again. So what do you think's next, what's coming next with the flexible work?

Natalie:
Oh, yeah. So work is what you do, not the location but work will also now be when you do it. So will there be court hours, will those hours go on? That might work for some businesses, it might not be so great. But actually some creative people, they are best placed to work at 11 o'clock at night for example, till three in the morning. Now we also have a duty of care and that is really important. So that worries us as well. But thinking about work, location, hours, the next thing that will come will be about the working hours. The nine to five. We've dropped the office, but we're now looking at the hours that people work. But actually think of the benefits that we can get. Imagine every employee in your business was working at their peak time.

Ewan:
Yeah. I suppose that's the, well I said scary there, but maybe it's not scary. Maybe it is just a case of trust in your employees and accepting that as you say, a creative maybe works best at 11 o'clock at night knowing that they've had a couple hours at lunch to go and do the run or whatever it might be. So it's finding that, but I know for some employers that will be a, that's-

Natalie:
A massive shift.

Ewan:
... a big step isn't it to say-

Natalie:
That's a massive shift.

Ewan:
What do you do legally with contracts if you don't have set hours? How do you manage that?

Natalie:
Absolutely. How do we make sure that people are not exceeding in terms of working hours? How are we making sure that people aren't burning out? How are we making sure that we've got enough hours between shifts? All of the legal responsibilities that we have. So there has to be massive controls in the background to make sure that we can still keep an eye on employees and making sure whatevers they are actually doing.

Ewan:
And that duty of care. That was an interesting point you touched on there. That must be a bit of a minefield because somebody's working at three in the morning because that works with their schedule. But then how do you know if that's working effectively or if that is their poor productivity and they're actually stressed out and they're continuing to work at three because, "I need to finish that project." How do we find that balance?

Natalie:
And that's not flexible working, isn't it?

Ewan:
No.

Natalie:
Because they've had their flexible working maybe throughout their day, but they're logging on in the evening to catch up with it. It's all about knowing your team.

Ewan:
That's interesting. Know your team.

Natalie:
Making sure that they can come and say, "Listen, I'm really burnt out. I've had so much on this now that I was up to three o'clock in the morning." We to stop this and have a look. Is it a resource issue? Is it a productivity, is it a capability issue? Is it the wrong person in the seat for the job? Lots to think about but for me that's not maybe flexible working, that's managing your team.

Ewan:
Managing your team. Yeah. So that's really interesting. So what is it that the employers can legally expect of their employees when they're working from home or flexibly working?

Natalie:
Good question. What minefield to ask? How long have we got?

Ewan:
That's why I threw it in there.

Natalie:
How long have we got?

Ewan:
Couple minutes that we can squeeze in.

Natalie:
I guess it's more in terms of what's expected from the employer to make sure that they are working within duty of care to make sure that they are not exceeding any working time regulations, to make sure that they are risk assessing those that are at home working through health and safety, which is not my bag.

Ewan:
I better ask you questions about that then.

Natalie:
But what... Go back to your question again.

Ewan:
I suppose what can we legally expect from people in terms of the employers? Where does their responsibility lie? You mentioned it actually, things like risk assessing the house, providing the right kit, the right things, the right seats, the right desks.

Natalie:
Absolutely.

Ewan:
Are they illegally bound to provide that? Is that part of the new laws that might come in?

Natalie:
Maybe not to provide those items but to make sure that they're equipped to do-

Ewan:
To do their work.

Natalie:
... to do their work at home.

Ewan:
Is there a risk assessment level? I know you each health and safety is not your bag, but-

Natalie:
No, absolutely from their environment to their equipment to all of that. Which is quite interesting, because I'd love to know during COVID how many organizations were able to do that because it was business survival mode. It was, "Quickly get home, here's a laptop. Have you got a desk? Have you got..." Heard some horrific stories of people working in bedrooms. So they were eating, sleeping, working and a bedroom. And how is that adapted now? But I guess that hopefully won't be the case now. Environments will be a bit better for working.

Ewan:
This is a real challenge for you. There's so many different households, so many different ways of working and people are comfortable in their own environment, which might not be exactly what you would expect at work.

Natalie:
Yeah, absolutely.

Ewan:
So there's a wee bit of, not lack of control, but I suppose finding a way to control that, isn't it? So you can be comfortable knowing that people are working from home and then there's that duty of care making sure that they're healthy and fit. Excuse me. So I suppose it's just understanding that, where does that lie?

Natalie:
And also from an employee's perspective, they also have a duty to keep in touch with their employer, to still be logging on at the times that they're meant to be working to still. And that's the bit that's going to be a bit more tricky maybe where the communication needs to be very much two-way. So although they're at home, it doesn't matter. There's still as much communication. That's the challenge. Still as much communication as there would be in an office. It might have to adapt to be a bit different or maybe be a wee bit more digital. But there still has to be the communication both ways or it's never going to work.

Ewan:
Okay. So flexible working, is it here to stay or do you think we're going to revert back to, "Everybody in the office. Come on, get back in."

Natalie:
Oh it's a difficult one. Some people have. Some people are what's next?

Ewan:
Yes.

Natalie:
So it is really, really difficult because each business needs to do its own thing and assess its own thing. It would be great to see we moved through flexible working probably 10 years more in the future. So it would be lovely. I guess we'll not be going at that pace, but it will be what next for a lot of businesses and taking it to the next step. Others might revert back because it's maybe not working or they've not quite got it or they've not got the right people in place so they have to revert back.

Ewan:
Just keep evolving, keep developing with that.

Natalie:
Keep it going. Absolutely. Work is what you do, not where you work. So I guess-

Ewan:
That's the takeaway.

Natalie:
... what does that mean?

Ewan:
Yeah, perfect.

So Natalie, flexible working. What are our top three takeaways from that chat?

Natalie:
Treat everyone as an individual.

Ewan:
Yeah.

Natalie:
Sometimes obviously a business must say, "Everyone in the office for three days," et cetera. But you're going to get the most out of people by treating them as an individual. Find out what they need, what floats their boat, how they work best, and trying to adapt that as a big task.

Ewan:
Okay.

Natalie:
I appreciate that. That is a really big task.

Ewan:
That is big, yeah.

Natalie:
But that's how we're working with some of our clients on that. Second top tip would be keep updated.

Ewan:
Oh yeah.

Natalie:
It is forever moving. The changes are looming. The changes have been concluded but haven't yet been brought into effect.

Ewan:
So not implemented yet?

Natalie:
Not yet. Watch this space for 2023. They will be at some point and then it will become that day one, right?

Ewan:
Right. Okay.

Natalie:
And two requests, not a right, remember? Two requests-

Ewan:
Two request, yeah.

Natalie:
... in the 12 months and there is a three-month period at the moment for someone's request from start to finish, including an appeal. That will go down to two months now. So an employer will have the-

Ewan:
So I have to reply it in two months. Okay.

Natalie:
... to respond and to get something in place within two months.

Ewan:
Okay.

Natalie:
So that's another change in that. This will be coming at some point when we're ready to go. But just be ready.

Ewan:
Be mindful of that.

Natalie:
So be mindful of that. Have a look at your policy and make sure that's adapted for these changes as well. And our top tip number three is just to be in mind that the best thing, work is what you do, it's not the location anymore.

Ewan:
I like that. Good. Thank you.

Natalie:
Thanks for listening. Make sure you subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review.

Ewan:
And if you're watching on YouTube, like and subscribe. And if there are any topics you'd like us to discuss, just get in touch.