Diversity Training In The Workplace

 

Ewan (00:07):
Hi, and welcome back to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast, as ever joined by Natalie from Beyond HR. Natalie, how are you?

Natalie (00:14):
All good. Still undecided, what to wear with these weather seasons. Where are we? What are we wearing? It's sunny and then it is lovely. I don't know what Edinburgh's like, but the sun was shining here and now it's back to normal.

Ewan (00:27):
Well, I had to scrape the ice off my car yesterday morning and nearly the end of April. I live in the borders. So yeah, it was pretty cold down there. It was frost in the ground. But yeah, hopefully we're going. Hopefully, we can appear in some spring soon. So yeah, today we're going to talk about diversity inclusion, and I'm really excited to say we're joined today by Joy Lewis, who is the founder and CEO of A I Employability, which it says on the website is downright decent inclusion training, which I absolutely love. I think that's perfect. It says exactly what it says on the tin, so Joy, welcome along.

Joy (01:02):
Thank you. It's lovely to be here. Very excited too.

Ewan (01:12):
Joy, do you want to tell us a little bit about A I employability? Just what does downright decent inclusion training actually mean?

Joy (01:20):
Yeah, good. Okay, thank you. Well, I think if I tell you about our clients, it probably will help. So our clients come to us for several reasons. They may be struggling to attract a diverse range of candidates. They may be feeling pressure from clients asking about their diversity and inclusion policies, or they may simply be confused about all the things they're told or feel they need to do to be seen as inclusive employers. But where they like to be is having certainty that they're doing the right things, that their adverts aren't putting off certain groups from applying, that their inclusion practices stand up to scrutiny from their customers in particular, and stakeholders and that they're on the right D and I path, but how do they get there? And our workshops and programs give peace of mind to HR and recruiters and employers in general. They give them knowledge and the peace of mind that they're doing the right things, they're on the right journey and can hold their heads up high with clients and stakeholders. Does that make sense?

Ewan (02:29):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's certainly from what we've found at Eden Scott is very much about helping people to have that confidence that they are going on the right journey and don't think anybody's there yet, but going on the right journey and ensuring that there's a bit of confidence in what you say and how you see it. So I think that absolutely sounds

Joy (02:46):
It's a long journey as well.

Ewan (02:47):
Yes. Well, I guess that takes me on to my first question, which is, I mean, what does success look like? Diverse inclusion has been on the agenda for a while as it should be and something that we should be tackling, but that feels like sometimes we've maybe just not made the strides that we thought we might. And I just wondered what are the barriers that are holding people back? What is holding us back in terms of achieving some of these things like equal pay and improved diversity around boards, for instance?

Joy (03:17):
Well, let's take both those excellent examples. I think it's good that both the issues you mentioned are still being talked about. That's progress in itself and the fact that equal pay is now a subject that everyone knows about. So that's quite good. And also, I think large companies, it's quite shaming if they're not able to show that they've got equal pay. But you're right, it is still poor, it is still slow and it's uneven despite all the government interventions. And it's the same with diverse boards. I don't think there are many boards in the UK that aren't looking at themselves and saying, one of three things we're good or we could do better, or That doesn't concern us

Joy (04:03):
And these pockets of naysayers, and you'll know who they are, you'll all recognize them. They will eventually fall behind the competition as it moves ahead of them. So they will in the end, lose out. I have no doubt about that. But meanwhile, I think we need to focus on the middle group and encourage the companies who know they need more difference on the board but aren't sure how to go about getting it. Because if we can improve those companies, it will have a knock-on effect on the naysayers as they start to lose customers and become stale and eventually decide, we do actually need to do some thinking here.

Ewan (04:44):
And they'll be behind the curve only. It's such an important thing, but it takes time to transition, takes time for these things to come to fruition. And education like your training is such an important part of that. It's really educating people to see the value of it and it's the right thing to do. We've talked a lot about this. It's the right thing to do. Absolutely. But also there is a business benefit. I mean, that should be secondary. It should be about doing the right thing. But there is a business benefit here as well, isn't it?

Joy (05:10):
There is. And interesting you should say, because there was another McKinsey report who've been really good at these diversity data surveys, and it was a recent one, it's just December, 2023, they published a very comprehensive report and they've now proven that increased representation of women on boards has a direct and positive impact on the financials. For the first time, they've seen a significant association as well with ethnic representation.

Ewan (05:42):
Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Joy (05:45):
They're using this global data set that shows that one fifth of executive team members are women, and that's a third hire was reported in 20. That's quite good progress.

Ewan (06:00):
It's progress. Yeah. I mean it's progress just I suppose it's the same with everything. You want it to move faster, want

Joy (06:07):
More? Oh, absolutely.

Ewan (06:08):
We want more. We want more.

Joy (06:10):
How do we do that? So the world is shifting, but there's so many barriers still remaining. And for me, I think that the worst one is the resistance to change that we just mentioned on boards and in senior levels. There is a bit of resistance. That's one of the biggest barriers for me.

Ewan (06:30):
Do you think that resistance is around education? Is it around not willing to take that step because there's a fear of loss, there's a fear of loss of control. What is it that's driving that?

Joy (06:46):
I think it's the fear of the unknown.

Ewan (06:48):
Yeah, yeah.

Joy (06:50):
And we all have, and we'll come onto this I'm sure later, we all have these unconscious biases and people are worried about them. They've been brought up with them for a long time. I think they're nervous about talking about that. So it's the fear of the unknown. But I think once they start on that journey, they realize actually this is fine. This is

Ewan (07:10):
Easy.

Joy (07:12):
And that journey has to be done well, and we'll come to that later too. Yeah. Will scare them off.

Ewan (07:19):
Well, actually, just talking about that unconscious bias, how do organizations do they measure and mitigate against that? I mean, it's unconscious. So how do you deal with that in that recruitment process?

Joy (07:31):
Well, process AI has been working on this for about 14 years now, and how do we do it? Well, we practiced inclusive recruitment as an inclusive recruitment company and what we've learned and now share through our inclusive recruitment workshops, which you and and your colleagues have benefited from. We

Ewan (07:48):
Have. They were excellent. Yes,

Joy (07:51):
Thank you. So what we've learned is that everyone has biases and you can't stop those biases, but you can be aware of them. And that's more than half the battle. And I'm sure that many people listening thinking that blind recruitment or anonymizing CVS is the way forward. You've all heard of that? Yes. Natalie heard of it. Course you

Natalie (08:10):
Have. I'm laughing at mine and I am very honest. Men in brown shoes, I dunno where it came from. Men in brown shoes. So sorry to all the listeners, Y's having a look at what shoes he's put on today, men in brown shoes. And I'll be honest, when we're talking about this in business, I dunno what it is, it pits me off and I dunno what it is.

Joy (08:35):
You're a big fan of brown shoes.

Ewan (08:36):
No, I've got my high tops, my trainers on. I might get a job in Natalie then.

Natalie (08:42):
Anyone else want to disclose any others? I just laugh when we get to these biases. I don't know where it's came from.

Joy (08:49):
I have a story for you I'm looking forward to, I'll give some time to think about. But I was a conference and I was sitting in the middle aisle at the side and a little old lady walked in with a stick and she was very frail. So I stood up and walked with her, took her arm thinking I was doing the right thing, took her down to the front and I started quite close to the front thinking she probably couldn't hear very well and made sure she was sat and asked if she wanted a drink of water. And I felt I'd done my citizen's duty for the day and went back to my seat. Now lo and behold, if that lady wasn't the keynote speaker

Natalie (09:33):
Or no judged, I

Joy (09:36):
Had judged that little, listen to my language. I had judged that little old lady. And it's through things like that that we all become a little bit more aware about our feelings. And I, I'd hate to call it a bias, it's just something that perhaps I've been brought up with that I've grown up with and now I have to be aware of.

Ewan (09:58):
Yeah, absolutely. Yours.

Natalie (10:01):
We're not disclosing yours.

Ewan (10:03):
I was sitting there panicking, thinking, what? Come on, think of something. But this isn't necessarily a bias, this is an interesting development, I think, is that

Ewan (10:18):
There's a growing number of people who are coming into the workforce who don't drink alcohol, right? So this is an interesting thing. So I don't think either way about it, but it's an interesting thing that you think, wow, there's always been a perception and my life certainly is that you go to work, you go out for a pint or whatever, and when we give away prizes, we maybe give a bottle of champagne or whatever it might be. And it's not a bias in that I wouldn't give somebody a job or whatever, but it's an interesting concept to think nothing. It doesn't all have to revolve around alcohol. Are you

Natalie (10:49):
Suspicious? Are you suspicious of those people?

Ewan (10:51):
Well, but yeah. Well I dunno, it's interesting now that particularly younger people are going, well, I'm not going to drink. I don't really need to. And it's never something that's crossed my mind, not I drink well, I drink enough, but that's generational things. But it's a generational thing that says, and a lot of workplaces were built on that Friday night culture of let's go to the pub and have a chat. And it's a bit of team building and all that and it still has its place, but actually there's a growing number of people go, well, let's meet in the gym, or let's go and have a coffee rather than let's go to the pub. So it's maybe not a, but you're right, it makes you think, oh right, why do you not drink? And there should be no reason for this other than I don't want to. It's as simple as that. But it is interesting the way that perceptions that they grow based on previous behavior. And I guess that's exactly what it's all about, isn't it? It's learned behavior and actually it's learned behavior. Although I'm not sure what the learned behavior is in brown shoes, but there you go.

Natalie (11:53):
Our ideal person here then is an older gentleman wearing a pair of brown shoes. That doesn't drink is our concept from today.

Ewan (12:04):
Absolutely.

Joy (12:06):
Listen, let's get back to this. Yes. Drink and mitigating, shall we? Because I'm going to be controversial now and I know you're going to enjoy that. You absolutely.

Ewan (12:16):
Yes.

Joy (12:17):
So here we go. Then I mentioned about blind recruiting and lots of people are doing this, they're spending a fortune making sure this is happening and it's fine, it's good. But for me, you might be surprised to hear that I don't see this as a solution. I see it as a sticking plaster. It's going to help prevent biases that may arise from seeing the candidate's name and demographic information. But this is a sticking pasta and although a good one, it's nonetheless not going to tackle the root cause. And I believe helping people to be aware of their biases as I've been saying now and learning to see past them and just look at the skills and the experience of the candidate, which is what you'll know you should do. I think that would be progress in any company's DNI journey. And that's my preference, to look at the root cause of unconscious bias, help overcome it. Because those people who are doing the blind recruiting and are not seeing the cv, they then go on to do the interview, don't they? And they're seeing those people. And if you've got any biases, that's where it comes out. So I'm not, we see it as a sticking plaster. Was that controversial enough for you?

Ewan (13:42):
Right, absolutely. I guess I suppose just to come back on that, I think there's maybe that pressure to say, look, we need a more immediate solution. Whereas you're right, and I totally buy into what you're saying there in terms of education and helping people get around that themselves learned behavior is a far solution than here's a definitive role, it's blind recruitment. And I completely agree with you, and I wonder if it's just the pressure from organizations that say, we need to quantify what we're doing here. We need to be able to show that we're making a change. And I think you're absolutely right. I think a lot of these things do end up being sticking plasters. But actually the long-term solution here, as you say is can we educate? Can we help? Can we develop people so that they change their mindset?

Joy (14:27):
And one good measurement using that then is if you've done your tracking before of who's applying, who's getting interviewed and who's getting hired, then you do some blind recruitment and you'll then see the difference. Then you'll see if you're improving on your DNI journey, what are kind of differences made, then you did the training and then went back to the normal without the client recruiting, you'd also see if you made progress. So yeah,

Ewan (14:56):
Yeah. No, that's good actually. And actually, so I suppose that takes us onto our next point, which is around once you've hired them and once diverse talent is hired, how do companies go about making sure that they feel included and valued as part of the long-term strategy of the business?

Joy (15:14):
Yeah. Well you won't be surprised to hear me use that word inclusion

Joy (15:20):
Because it's all about ensuring that they're included and valued. But how to do that. Exactly. And there are some obvious steps, but there are some things that I've learned over the years that stand out to me on the subject. And the first one is conversations. And another story, a Muslim woman on my team told an audience, ask me about me and I'd love to tell you, ask me about my religion, about my clothes, about our celebrations. I'd love to tell you, don't be afraid to ask me. And that was in those days, it was a few years back now, but it was a revelation to me because you just stand in front of somebody who isn't your norm and you have that fear. And here was someone saying, just ask me and I'm human.

Ewan (16:16):
I'd love to

Natalie (16:19):
This point, joy there has absolutely brilliant, but there has been over recent months and weeks where the question has been asked and then a grievance has been raised.

Joy (16:29):
Yes. And that is

Natalie (16:31):
A nightmare, isn't it? Yeah.

Joy (16:33):
Now I'll come on to that, Natalie, because this is where training comes in because yes, I am saying be brave and ask questions, but there are some questions. You can't be rude, you can't be exclusive. You have to be careful about what you say. And yes, we are now learning, and I'm happy to talk about this. We are now learning that people who were born in a different country maybe have a different accent, don't look like a Scottish person in our heads are Scottish in their heads. And so you have to be so careful with the phrase, where are you from? It hurts. It hurts them. Now I have this because I'm English, and if I hear an English accent I'll say, oh, are you English? Because I'm trying to make a bond. And they will be absolutely affronted because they won't be English, they will be from Edinburgh. And I'm then horrified, my own lack of thought. We all do it, forgive ourselves. We have to just apologize and learn. And it's going to take a while, especially the older,

Ewan (17:48):
It's part of that growth mindset, isn't it, to be able to say, you will make mistakes in this sort of process. Because Natalie and I chatted about this a while back, and she had a good analogy here, diversity is being asked to the party and inclusion is being asked to dance at the party. It's that concept of, look, there's a whole journey here. You have to go on, but you will make mistakes on that journey. And so just accept that. And nobody, and you're right, they don't want any grievances or anything like that. So there is a level of education required. But I think it's a really interesting point just to say, just ask me, let's have a chat, let's have a conversation. Because I think there's definitely a fear around that, around, well, I should know this. Well, hands up. I don't know the ins and outs of different religions or different, or the reason why you dress the way you do or whatever it might be. I think there's reason this, but finding out is far better than just making assumptions and making your own decision around this, which is quite often.

Joy (18:46):
And we offer lots of help with that in training when people are nervous about that. Lots of ways of helping you with that. But one of my biggest tips here today will be when you go, you want to find out about someone, you ask them a really open question, tell me about yourself.

Joy (19:09):
That's all you need to ask. If they want to talk about themselves, they will. They want to tell you where they originated from, they were. And if they don't, you'll know. But the other thing is, I've also worked with a lot of neurodiverse people and I'm aware that some won't want to talk even when you ask an open question, and that's fine. But as you said earlier, Yuan, you've just got to ensure that they always have the opportunity to take part, always included, and that they can self-select from any events or any conversations as and when they reach.

Ewan (19:45):
Yep. I mean again, diversity isn't specific to one gender or to race or so on. It's across the board, isn't it? Diversity of thought. And I suppose just moving on to that business performance and diversity can help your business give you a critical advantage over your competitors. Is that something you've seen and you've touched on it before, just about the success of females on boards and so on, and the success of those companies. What sort of success are you seeing for these businesses? Is there any more practical tips that companies could implement in terms of making sure employees feel part of that organization and feel included?

Joy (20:28):
Yeah, definitely. One of the things that I'm seeing really take off now are employee resource groups that made up of small voluntary committees and employees who share a characteristic, whether that's gender, ethnicity, religion or just an interest hobby. And the groups can give each other support on personal stuff, but also career support

Ewan (20:54):
And

Joy (20:55):
It's in a safe space, which is key. Then they might get allies in as well, outsiders who don't have that common interest, which is adding diversity, which is really key. And I want that inclusion, and I know that sounds like what big organizations do, but smaller organizations could do this with facilitated conversations and team meetings, small groups. What we're doing here is giving people a voice, which is what a message has been, hasn't it, through this conversation, giving people a voice because they need to be heard. And then the other one I guess is mentoring. I'm a big fan of mentoring. I could talk for hours about mentoring, lots of different ways of doing it. So if anyone's interested, I'm happy to discuss that.

Ewan (21:43):
But

Joy (21:44):
I've got to talk about training, haven't I? Because employees and managers need support with this. And you'll agree with that, Yuen, am I right? They can't be expected to.

Ewan (21:54):
Absolutely, absolutely.

Joy (21:56):
But what is it? What is diversity training? Well, for me it's about awareness and those what I call aha moments. Do you know what I mean? Suddenly it clicks. They're going to say things like, how shall we make everyone feel they belong? And that's what I want to hear. I want that question to come up from them. And leaders, employers, they need to be given how tools, they can't do it alone, it's too much. And then there are the brief e-course where there's very little interaction, very little discussion, and they may not be the ideal solution. Training I think is to cover the topics that we've talked about and conscious bias, cultural competence, inclusive communication, and that can really help employees understand all those different perspectives and foster that empathy that we're looking for and we're worried that we don't have needs to be promoted from the top. This is the other key thing, and this will keep coming up. I'm sure that leaders need to be visible on this. They can't just leave it to HR or marketing because they have to set the tone.

Natalie (23:20):
Let's leave it to hr. How many times, let's just leave it to hr. They'll just do it.

Joy (23:27):
You know that last week, don't

Ewan (23:29):
Know that we had this conversation last podcast me.

Natalie (23:36):
Absolutely no, brilliant. So success. What does that, how do organizations know, right? We've got it, we've got it nailed, we've got there. How can we measure what success looks like for such this topic? It's very difficult, isn't it?

Joy (23:53):
Okay, so you've got various different areas that could be measured. You've got the organizational culture one, you've got the employee experience and you've got business outcomes. And they could all be measured to give you some understanding of how you're doing. And there are a lot of affected ones, but why don't we just focus on the easiest ones because they're the most likely ones to get done. And if you start by monitoring your retention rate, I think that gives you quite a good starting point. And that's not difficult to do to start now if you're not doing it already.

Joy (24:36):
And it's not just how many, of course, it's also the who you can track demographic data. Some businesses are already doing that. Some have are now trying to do that. It's not an easy one. I'd be interested to know what Natalie thinks about that. Surveys are a great way, if handled correctly. So getting feedback from employees is on DNI especially is brilliant, but you have to do it right. And there's a whole technique and we spend a lot of time talking with businesses about how to get that right and you need to track pain and promotion. I think that's another key one. But one of my most interesting things here I think is, and you are doing this right? You are doing this. You are spreading the economic love. Do you know how you're doing that yen,

Natalie (25:35):
The economic love

Joy (25:38):
You, you're spreading love because you've been working with a social enterprise.

Ewan (25:44):
Yes, you

Joy (25:45):
Are not just working with the norm, you are not going to the big boys. You are spreading the economic love. And that is diversity, isn't it? Yeah.

Joy (25:57):
That's part of your diversity journey. So that's a good one. And I think the final one, which I've left it to last because I wanted it to be easy, and this is not the easiest one, but it is something I'd love people to think about, which is the leaders, again, coming back to the leaders, they need to be accountable. I'm sure they want to be accountable, but how do we do that? And the thing nowadays is could this be put into the metrics and their performance evaluations? It's a little bit of pressure, but can't help thinking it might make things, how you were talking about getting things going faster. Could that be,

Ewan (26:42):
I dunno what you think about that, but I've always thought that that should be something that should be factored into appraisals and so on, is actually making that a metric. I know in various places I've been, once it becomes a metric, people laser focused on it because they know impacts on their performance, impacts their appraisals. It's not the easiest thing I would imagine to track necessarily. But everything, it's not a sales figure, for instance. However, it has an impact on the business, doesn't it? And I think tracking that, it's the same. I always come from a marketing point of view. If you've got vision and values, how are they of any value to your business if you don't track what that means to the people who work for your business. So in the same way, if you've got diversity inclusion, that should be part of an appraisal process and part of what everybody's tasked with, I think. But then again, I defer to Natalie, maybe you'd have a better approach to that or a better idea on that.

Natalie (27:36):
I mean, we are miles away with the realms of appraisals and what actually can be achieved every day. We are having conversations, and you're right, how many organizations out there and listeners, what your thoughts, how many organizations out there, first of all even have the values written first of all, or they've even looked at them over the last 12 months or Oh, we live and breathe by our values. I'm like, show me they're on the wall. Where else are they? And those is the biggest, quickest, best way to try and launch those values. We've been doing lots of work recently, but you're right, getting these things, we are so far away, one business, one operation at a time to get this in place to then set the path to move forward. We are miles away from it. It stuns me and it's the biggest trick that's missed. Absolutely. Whether it's values, EDI, everything has to be embedded right there. The forms that just measure performance need burns. That is a clear instruction and a takeaway. Burn it, develop it, speak to someone about it and let's get with the times and let's get moving. Yeah, it's lovely there after I have more of a rant there, but I'll stop there on that one. You drop the mic

Ewan (29:01):
Soapbox just in there.

Natalie (29:04):
Joy, I'm also really off track. I am also really keen to hear the approach behind the box tickers and all of this. Let's do it because it's good PR or where do we start from there? Those box tickers, which is, again, I'll leave you to give you the expertise, but what do we say to the box tickers, we're doing it because we should not because we want to or we can or we see the potential just because actually this is getting talked about and we'll just do it.

Joy (29:34):
Yeah, I mean I could talk forever about that, Natalie, but you're absolutely right. I think we have to handle that very gently. The point here is that they think they're doing the right thing. They put something on their website, which they want to be, but any newcomer coming in is going to feel that what they read before they joined is not the reality and they exit

Joy (30:03):
If you do. I mentioned earlier these e courses. Now I'm not going to undervalue them. They're better than nothing. But without that interaction to know what your staff are feeling about these e courses without further interaction with different voices. This is the big thing. Different voices. You need to hear, different voices to get different opinions than just doing a course on racism. A course on this is for me, you need a journey, otherwise where do you go? It's so confusing and you can't keep track of everything. And it's where leaders have to come in as well because they need to be part of that because they can benefit from that. So I'm going to tell you a little story about an HR director that I worked with.

Joy (31:06):
He knew that he needed to bring his employee, his senior leaders in with him. They had to be there on this journey, otherwise all he was going to do was tick some boxes and he didn't want to do that. And this is the learning for everyone. I think you have to go on a journey. And he wanted to get his journey started. I'm sure he felt he had got that journey started, but he was blocked by senior leaders who weren't with him on this path. So we came in and did a full day workshop to get them started leaving them with action plans. And they sat there a little bit like this to start with, but they did relax and I did see those aha moments, no finger wagging. We saw some aha moments. And by the end of it, one of the most skeptical ones

Natalie (32:08):
Had brown shoes.

Joy (32:14):
I checked, no, he volunteered to be a diversity champion for the company he was the most. And the HR director said, we've made his life a lot easier. And then we worked with middle managers with him and HR so that they were all on the same page about D and I journey. And that's how you overcome this box ticking. You set yourselves on a journey. So you don't need to, you can tell people about the journey you are on, you tell them what you've done, what you've achieved, the impact of that. And if you tick boxes, you're not achieving anything, no results. You're not going to get any feedback on that, you're not going to get any good feedback from that. You want good feedback. And then you can say to your clients, to your stakeholders, here's the great feedback that I've had. Does that make sense? Yeah,

Natalie (33:08):
Proof is definitely in the pudding. You're right. Everyone can stand up and say, I take this seriously. The next question should be show me, isn't it? Show me. Because then you'll see evidence, show me and then we'll know actually, you're not standing for what you're standing for. There's no evidence there. So absolutely. Great. It's good. We could chat all day about this particular topic. We, we look at technology, it would be silly not for us to talk about technology in this topic. And how can technology or where is it coming in this particular subject and what have you seen that has been helpful? Or do we need it? What does that look like in terms? Well,

Joy (33:48):
There's another one where I'm potentially going to be controversial again, isn't it? Well, I've been, as I said, we used to do recruitment up until last year. We did inclusive recruitment working with employers who wanted a diverse shortlist. I often got approached by companies offering me tech to screen the CVS quicker to screen video interviews. And I just gut instinct made me think, I now know after all these years of working with diverse people, why that's not going to work or I believe I do that we know that tech can help widen the candidate. Paul, we've got job sports, we've got social media brilliance. It's all part of that. And that may also be able to reduce some bias in hiring, but it creates barriers because one, not everyone has access to technology. A lot of the women I've worked with, minority ethnic women in the past and the diverse group that I've been working with, they're not all on LinkedIn.

Joy (34:58):
They're not all able to look at a screen for as long as you and I can so they don't have access to tech. But also using more tech means recruiting becomes less personal. And so the process gets very frustrating for candidates, especially the neurodiverse candidates in my opinion. So I've never been a fan of AI tech that screens CVS or monitors video applications. And firstly, this tech is programmed by people and organizations who have biases themselves going to infiltrate their programs. And secondly, having met and spoken to many disabled, disfigured and neurodiverse people I know firsthand the issues they face when for work. And one of my own employees over Covid, I was an intern and he couldn't look into the camera and all I ever saw of him was the top of his head.

Joy (36:03):
So what tech can get through that there is. So he was perfectly capable, just unable to focus his gaze when length of time. And another highly intelligent guy I worked with had ADHD and he couldn't cope with online tests. What chance do these people have? So exceptions need to be made, but we can't stop tech, but we have to look at exceptions and not rely on it. And tech does well in data collection factor. We all use it. We all use our CRMs and data collection analysis is brilliant, but it just needs to be balanced with a lot of human oversight, I believe.

Natalie (36:48):
So in all of this, joy, what should be expected of leaders?

Joy (36:54):
Yeah. And Natalie, you mentioned these values as well. How do they promote the values in the company? And as I mentioned, the first one is to shout. They've got to shout about it. It's got to be their personal commitment to these values. How are they going to help integrate them into the company's goals rather than handing it down to another department? It's got to be them and they need to learn about it and understand diverse perspectives and ensure equality of opportunity. So it's training for them as well. They have to be part of the training. And also if they're not part of the training, what does that look like to the employees as well? So one organization I know had a great diverse team of directors, but one director when introduced to a minority ethnic person and I was there unwittingly said something that caused offense.

Joy (37:53):
And this escalated to the MD with the whole team getting behind the employee reporting that they felt the language used by the director didn't fit with the diversity and inclusion goals of the company. They made their feelings known loudly and it was very uncomfortable for concern. But it was such a good lesson. And this highlights not only the need, I think for awareness and ongoing training of leaders and board members, but also if there was more diversity in leadership teams, that learning and empathy and awareness would be much greater because it would be organic. They'd be doing it as they were meeting people of different backgrounds. So yes, it's a difficult subject. And it also speaks to accountability, doesn't it? Leaders have to be accountable and they have to hold each other to account and they are the ones need to be promoting D and I. Sorry.

Ewan (38:55):
No, no, I was just going to say I think that's a really good point, being held accountable around that board table because that comes back to inclusion, is making sure that everybody around that board table feels like they have the author to put their point across. And it is respected by everybody around that table. You can have your own opinions, your own thoughts, but if you don't feel comfortable enough to make your point and tell people around that table from your point of view, then you're missing that diversity. There's no point having people in a diverse board if they don't feel comfortable enough to make those points and to make those indicate those suggestions because it's the challenge that's really important here. There's no point in having a board of yes, people who, it's great to have diversity, but nobody can talk and everybody has to fall in behind the scenes.

Joy (39:44):
Absolutely.

Ewan (39:46):
That's the way it has to work. There's no value in that at all. So actually it's really important that around that leadership table, everybody feels included. They can say that point where the diversity of thought comes from, isn't it? And that's where that inclusive environment is created and then that disseminates its way down through the business as well.

Joy (40:04):
Yeah, lovely. And that also Natalie, HR having to do it all. I think the leaders who need to be the ones ensuring the creation of diverse hiring practices, showing that they want this, that they're behind it, that they want equal pay initiatives, flexible working arrangements, it makes it easier for HR to achieve this stuff.

Natalie (40:27):
Absolutely. And

Joy (40:28):
Diversity training programs, it's hard for HR to spend money if the leaders are not saying, we need this. And it's leaders who need to control and monitor the data as well.

Natalie (40:41):
Leaders that are dealing with the people every single day. It's great to see HR, but actually we are there to support and help you be the best person that you can be in the workplace who are having the daily interactions, who are doing the hiring, who are having the conversations, who are knowing and understanding their teams, not HR. We will help you achieve that, but we can do what we need to do. But it's the wrong way round.

Joy (41:04):
I'm on your side, Natalie. Absolutely.

Natalie (41:07):
We're getting there. And on the culture thing, the wardrobe, it's coming up and it's probably one of the biggest words in 2024 at the moment, isn't it as well alongside everything else, but how should companies train to pair the HR and their leaders to handle diversity effectively, ensuring that the efforts are not just a token and they're deeply embedded and integrated?

Joy (41:42):
Yeah, absolutely. My answer is slowly without pressure and without bingo wagging, I honestly believe that this subject can be fun and interesting if handled well and by the right people. And although I'm clearly biased, I do recommend outside experts be used. It's not fair to put all the pressure on the HR director or a diversity equity and inclusion director, a marketing director. Diversity is about difference. And you need different voices in the room, different opinions, different ideas, experts

Natalie (42:25):
In the field, experts in completely

Joy (42:29):
With so much knowledge behind them and often with lived experience. So getting some different people to help you see your way through to what I see as a very simple solution. And I've worked with over 500 minority ethnic women in the last seven years, and I use them here simply as a good example of an underrepresented group. There were so many cultural nuances, so many opportunities to slip and say something wrong. And we've talked about this already and I want people to feel comfortable with that so that they don't need to know it all. They just need to understand the basics of the exclusion. And if you are traveling abroad, then yes, you do need to understand that culture and how you should behave. But in this country, you are lucky. You can get away with being a little bit ignorant. But as I said before, not rude and not exclusive.

Joy (43:30):
So that said, training has to cover awareness. It has to cover biases and communication skills. It has to cover inclusive recruitment, inclusive retention. We've talked about data analysis, learning opportunities. There's a whole GA up that needs to cover. It's hard to fit that all in, but it's not difficult if you get someone in to help you with your d and i journey. So you feel you're getting somewhere, they're helping you all the way, and it's not a constant journey. It's something you can pick up and put down, but you are always doing something about it. You're always engaging your employees. You are always thinking about a new training program you could do. You are always thinking about where are we on the equity. That's all on the pay equity. So I will add that by fostering a culture of feedback and incorporating employee's perspectives into policy, then that's what's going to ensure that DNI becomes part of your DNA and not a box ticking

Natalie (44:47):
Exercise. That is a good sum up. That is a good

Joy (44:52):
Analogy. I drop the mic

Natalie (44:54):
G nine.

Ewan (44:54):
Yeah, drop the mic now.

Natalie (44:57):
Brilliant.

Ewan (44:58):
Love it. Well, listen, thank you much for your time today, joy. It's been a really good discussion. I've really enjoyed that and I know that hopefully our listeners have picked up some great tips as well. So thank you very much for your time, and if anybody wants to get in touch or find out more, we'll put your website and your LinkedIn details in the show notes as well. So thank you very much for your time. Thank you.

Natalie (45:15):
Thanks Joy.