Written by Ewan Anderson
18 Feb 2025
Making the most of Maternity Leave
Making The Most of Maternity and Parental Leave
In our latest episode of the Recruitment and Beyond podcast, we sit down with Lynn White, founder of Talent on Leave, to delve into the transformative journey of parental leave. Lynn shares her personal experiences and insights on how businesses can reframe maternity and paternity leave as opportunities for growth and development.Key Takeaways:
- Redefining Leave: Understanding the potential of parental leave to enhance both personal and professional growth.
- Empowering Communication: Encouraging open dialogues between employers and employees to foster a supportive environment.
- Strategic Planning: Implementing intentional approaches to make leave transitions beneficial for all parties.
Making the Most of Maternity and Parental Leave Transcript
Ewan (00:05):Hi, and welcome to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. My name's Yuan Anderson. I'm the marketing director here at Eden Scott. This is your essential guide to navigating the ever-changing world of human resources and recruitment. We chat with industry leading figures to give you the inside track on growing and developing the very best teams. Hi, welcome back to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. Today we are joined by Lynn White, who is the founder of Talent on Leave. Lynn, great to have you with us.
Lynn (00:41):
Thanks for having me.
Ewan (00:43):
Well, I'm fascinated by this, actually, I wanted to really understand a little bit more about this topic, and it's all about improving, I suppose, the opportunities and the chances for businesses to make more of Aternity and parental leave and ensuring that their staff really fuel part of the organization and come back refreshed and invigorated. So yeah, do you want to give us some insight into your background and then just a little bit on how you got started with Talent on Leave? Okay,
Lynn (01:14):
I'll give you the abbreviated version. So my background was fairly unrelated, so I actually started in marketing. I left uni, ended up in London at a big ad agency, and I stayed in that world for 13, 14, maybe 15 years, something like that. So I was kind of client services and I always had an interest in the planning side of it, but in client services, you're pulling the campaigns together, which you'll be familiar with and I loved it. But I think the thing that I loved most about it at the time, I would've said it was the variety or two days were the same. But actually I think what always tickled me and intrigued me was why do people do what they do? How do we affect behavior change? And in particular, there were a couple of campaigns that I worked on which were about behavior change, whether it was sexual health improvement or bowel cancer awareness. There were a few different ones of that genre. And every time they come into the ages they're like, I'll do it, I'll do it. And I did love all of that. I kept on in that career until I was pregnant with my third baby. And that's kind of where the talent leave story begins, I think. So when I was pregnant with him, and this was back in 2015,
(02:40):
I just had the fear because I had been through having a baby twice, being in mat leave twice, and the dipping confidence and the disorientation of just what a different experience it is compared to everything I'd ever known. And even when I went on my second baby thinking, oh well, this'll be easier, it's just a different kind of tricky. And it was really out of that when I was having him. I thought there's got to be a better way to actually prepare for not just going on leave, not just professionally, but also personally. So the first time around, I had found it quite a shock to my system going from being quite an aight personality. The picture of ad agency, it's fast, it's fighting, it's attention to detail, it's go, go go. And being a little bit of a perfectionist into, oh my God, I actually am a complete beginner again and I can't control all of this. And no matter how hard I fight for a schedule, I can't actually get this baby into a routine. And it really took me down a notch. I was against a backdrop of not that much support, and I just remember feeling like, gosh, I've got family around me. What about people who don't?
(04:01):
And also that kind of sense of why are our expectations as professional, expecting parents built so high by the world around us and yet we're not really properly prepared for the reality which doesn't need to sink you, you just need to be prepared for it. So I had experienced postnatal anxiety the first time. I would say the second time it was more just like a general depletion. And therefore when I was pregnant with my third, I was like, right, we're doing this differently. So I actually bumped myself into coaching. I found a brilliant perinatal counselor and said, counseling's great. That's lovely. Can you actually be willing to coach at some point to mentor at some points? Because what I really want to do is learn about my personality, just grow myself awareness so that I can create a more intentional plan for the decisions that I'm going to be making both around my career, but also around what I want this leave experience to feel like and look like and play with the art of the possible instead of the threat of the inevitable.
(05:07):
And so that's what I did. And then just, wow, I returned to work. I really felt it had worked back to my job. By that point, I was freelancing as a consultant and then just had this little niggle to share the approach wider. A lot of peers and friends were getting other people to come and talk to me. I was helping them. And then I was thinking, yeah, actually if not now, what can this look like? So when Harry, who's the littlest turned one, I then launched myself into a whole bunch of training. I did all the perinatal trainings, so I did that. I did mental health, breastfeeding, all that stuff. But I also polished up and went and did an association for coaching for general coaching, emphasis on career and progression and outcome. And then I tied all that together into this approach which we now call talent on leave. And in 2019, I joined Epar Entrepreneurial Spark Time, and that's now subsequently moved to the RBS accelerator.
(06:17):
And so to be in a community like that where you're being encouraged and come on, do something with this, it's got to go somewhere. And I had a great coach at the time as well, Danielle McLeod, and they were all just saying, go before you're ready. You will never connect this to the level that you think it needs to be perfected. I think that old agency marketing part of me was like, it needs to be campaign ready. And it's like, just go not knowing exactly how the services are going to evolve, just get out there. And so that's what I did. And launched with an event very boldly, just invited a whole bunch of HR directors to an event which Pinton basins kindly hosted, gave me the space for, had a few speakers, told a bit of my story. And then from there, there were some just brilliant potential clients in there who put their hand up and said, let us evolve this with you.
(07:14):
Let's change the narrative. Who I'm delighted to say I still work with today, which is lovely, like five years old. Excellent. So yeah, so now Talent on Leave, the approach has evolved over the last few years into what I know tends to work well for various different size of companies. We will use it in different ways, but ultimately there are workshops for preparing for leave, preparing for return, and then return support as well as one-to-one coaching, which a lot of companies like for their senior talent who are on that kind of leadership track because I'm working with them monthly throughout their leave. And then some guys, sometimes we'll help a company take their policy and bring it to life a little bit and actually see what we can tackle through that, which means that if they do use coaching, it's not just as Anela class for something that was preventable.
Ewan (08:09):
Yeah, yeah. So do you think, I mean, just thinking of what you've just said there, and there's two sides to this I guess, but what is it that businesses are missing? Why do you think that they've never really looked at this properly? Is there a nervousness around this around being able to chat to people when they're on maternity or parental leave? Why are they missing the opportunities here?
Lynn (08:33):
I don't think it's intentional. And whilst fear does play a part, I don't think that's the initial driving force for what can look like inertia. And actually if you look at the number of companies all over the uk, but spotlight's a good share of them as well who are really investing in enhanced leave and really embracing working and looking at all the ways they can improve their practicalities. I think that one of the biggest things that's missing is just art of the possible. And some joined up thinking, one of the things that I remember when I started out and not being able to prove until I could start doing it to show people was that what happens before an in leave is just as important as what happens in return.
(09:24):
And that yes, the financials are important, but there are so many other hundreds of moments along the way that really, really matter, and you've got an opportunity to actually fight that tide of conditioning and stereotypes from a much earlier stage. And look, as humans, we're hardwired to go for what we're comfortable with and if the world scares us, this story of stereotypes and all this is what happens when you're a parent and this is what happens when you have an employee going on leave, then we're going to cl to that because it's all we know. And so when I started talking a lot about, and I think I actually put something in LinkedIn about this last week, is like if this was a leadership course, you guys, it would question absolute fortune.
(10:07):
The only trouble with it is it's delivered at such pace and under such intense circumstances, the likes that what's that program? SAS who do you, I think the pace and the intensity of it is like it's hard to integrate that without being really intentional about it. And so I think what they're missing is being able to see that it is a huge opportunity not just for someone to go out and add another dimension to their life, but also to transform some of those self-limiting behaviors and patterns that they may even had professionally and have been trying to improve for years before. Because you're suddenly in this intense period where you do need to have discernment and you do need to be clear on your problem solving. And you do need to understand the power of the pause and the difference between a reaction and a response and delegate and how to ask for help. And that's something senior talent who have come through a whole decade of school and university and everything's externally marked and it's external validation and suddenly you're in it and you have to find your own validation. Particularly in the uk, we don't have an awful lot of postnatal support in the uk, not the way we used to or the way we should.
(11:28):
So I think that's what's missing is just this sense of, well, what happens on leave is not really our business. I'm like, but it could be. And you don't actually have to go around and change an for that to happen.
Ewan (11:39):
Yeah, I guess. And so I suppose it is two sides as I mentioned on the other side, is there a big part of what you're doing here just to try and educate people to say when you go on maternity or parental leave, it doesn't mean it's the end. It doesn't mean it's to stop. It doesn't mean you stop engaging with your organization. Is there sometimes a bit of education for those that are on leave as well?
Lynn (12:02):
Absolutely. And I'm so glad you asked that. Somebody last week asked me about manager training and I had said, no. You said, why would you not do that? I'm like, well, actually, if you just think about mostly line managers, they're so busy firefighting and particularly in the climate we're in right now, just keeping things moving that has somebody to take time out their day or even over two days to be educated in the whole journey of lead, why to what end they're not going to remember. And if they do remember, they might not remember it exactly the right moment. And also how do we know what they're carrying around this whole topic because it's enormous.
(12:44):
So my view has always been, yes, there are things we can do to support managers. And I've done a few things like that, but not formal training. And that when it comes to the individual, that's where the power really lies. Because if you've got somebody, what is always absolutely blown my mind is that you can have this really brilliant, phenomenal, and I'm going to go with somebody female here, right? Because it's a gap and it remains a gap. But let's say you've got this brilliant senior female leader and she's going to be going on leave and she picks up the policy to have a wee look through what it's going to mean for her team, her manager, the rules, the dos, the don'ts, and you suddenly go from being this competent, high achieving all about town person to, oh my God, I'm a total hassle and oh, right, and I can do this and I can't do that. And you go from pilot to passenger.
(13:39):
And if there's one thing that I absolutely love doing whenever it's a workshop or a one-to-one is actually giving them the power back and being able to say, this isn't about a you versus your employer. This is actually about you being willing to speak up and ask for what you need and be willing to have conversations and don't just stick with the conversation plan that's set out by a policy because it doesn't know you. And it's so nuanced by individuals. So even if you can train a manager on the generalities, and it's the same reason I've never written a program or a login and follow my content because it's so nuanced to the individuals, everyone's journey
Ewan (14:22):
So different. Yeah, absolutely. And I suppose everybody approaches this differently as well, don't they? I mean having had our son and then listened to a lot of the feedback that you get, everybody's completely different as every child has. And so actually your approach to this has got to be individual, isn't it? You're absolutely right. It has to be an element of a policy that helps and guides and gives some suggestions, but it has to be an individual journey, doesn't it? And I suppose even just encouraging somebody to look at it differently, take a different approach to this is a key part of this, almost looking at somebody's psychology and saying, listen, we can help you point you in the right direction and give you some support here.
Lynn (15:04):
I think that's a really good point. And I think particularly because the way the world is does into almost playing a part when we go on leave, I'll often talk about archetypes and where and be like we have that option of going into victim mode, which I don't like that word, but maybe they will be me, right? We're going to make mode which is, oh, I'm going on leave. I better just follow all the rules and keep my head down and work really hard and do a great handover and just hope I've got a job when I come back hope they hope they don't forget about me. And then you've got warrior mode, which is right. I'm going to go in and I'm going to prove myself before I go and I'm going to make sure they don't forget me and I'm not handing that over until then, and I'm not stopping until this point, and actually I'm going to be keeping in touch at this level and I'm coming back after four months. I'm not waiting for a year because, so you can get these extremes. And then there's this kind more sage approach,
(15:58):
Which is, well, hang on one minute here, let's look at the bigger picture and what's the story I'm telling myself and actually what's that kind of shitty first draft of that story and how much of that is actually mine and how much of that's what the world's taught me to assume
(16:15):
And
(16:15):
Believe, and what am I projecting onto the people around me? What am I projecting onto my manager and onto my team and onto my employer about what is now inevitable? Rather than saying, well actually, what are the good questions to ask here and what's my truth? And can I go and say, tell myself a wee story here that you're going to forget me when I go and leave. How can I bring myself more personally into, right, well, let's talk about that and let's look at how we work with that. But it's about creating that environment for good conversation and helping people find their words.
Ewan (16:46):
Well, so I was just going to come around to that actually around communication and creating that environment where you feel like you can create whatever story you want, whatever scenario you want. And you're absolutely right here because it's such a personal thing. But suppose here it is around the balance between the employer and the employee and things like having the right policy in place or even just supporting managers to know how to support somebody to do that, almost leaving it to the employee to come to you and say, right, I'd like to structure it this way, like my maternity or parental leave to look like this because there's obviously a balance between professional and personal life here. And I think we would be mindful of that, but I suppose it's how do you create that scenario? And I guess a lot of it comes down to good communication, would that be right? I
Lynn (17:32):
Would say communications essential. And I think having boundaries is also important. Policies are there for a reason. And one of the things I'll often hear HR directors when we first start chatting is they'll say it's creating consistency across departments is really, you've got one manager who gets it and one who doesn't. And we're just trying to get everyone to stick to the rules fair. And I don't think that it's a case of saying that everyone's leave transition or everyone's return transition or everyone's keeping in touch, what that should look like should be the same. But I do think that there are sticks in the ground, you've got your way points, you've got the right, this is the general way we do things, but what is it that's flexible within that? So what's the trial and error opportunity that's there? And a lot of the time when people are asking for what they need, they're not asking for anything that goes against policy or that's going to overly compromise the company.
(18:36):
It's more about I just need you to hear me and I need to feel that I'm psychologically safe enough to interact with this policy and that whilst you're saying I can do this, that I'm not going to be penalized if I do. And actually from a return point of view, there are so many questions that people have about return that they don't want to ask. And the same with managers. Managers want to ask a whole load of stuff that they're scared to ask because they're like, what if I get it wrong? What if I say the wrong thing or unintentionally offend or they think I'm discriminating against them? But because everyone's got, like we talk about the glass ceiling, I think with leave there's this glass wall, I can see you and I can see your mouthing, but I can't really hear you properly so busy worrying about what I'm going to say next.
Ewan (19:21):
Is that the biggest challenge you come up against is that fear of what if I say something wrong? What if I get this wrong here? Is that from an employer's point of view? Would that be right?
Lynn (19:32):
Yeah, I think for on both sides
Ewan (19:36):
I
Lynn (19:36):
See it and that is fear-based. And that does come from what the world has taught us around discrimination and what will happen if, and it's become an experience that has been so, ified isn't a word, but it's been so legislated and however, at the expense of good communication. And I don't think managers need to have a script and I don't think they need to have intense training. I think they need to have two or three good coaching questions that they can ask on any given conversation in order to listen. And as long as there's an error of, I'm listening, you tell me your truth, I'll tell your mind, right, let's compromise and collaborate. How do we not just, here's the policy, but how do we interact with this policy
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