Support for Neurodiversity at Work | Eden Scott

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Support for Neurodiversity at Work

Neurodiversity at Work

 
 

Neurodiversity at Work - The Support You Need

Ewan and Andy had a good chat about the challenges that people from neurodivergent backgrounds face in securing and retaining a job. Andy and the team at WelcomeBrain often support organisations in realising the simple solutions they could implement to make the process fairer and more inclusive.

They talked through a range of topics, including:

  • What is neurodiversity?
  • Common challenges for neurodivergent individuals
  • How to adapt the recruitment process
  • Creating a workplace environment that works for everyone
  • The business benefits of neuro-inclusion
  • The role of leadership in fostering inclusion
  • Top 3 tips for becoming a neuro-inclusive organisation

Find out more in the podcast or check out our YouTube Channel.

 

Neurodiversity at Work - Transcript

Ewan (00:05):
Hi, and welcome to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. My name's Yan Anderson. I'm the marketing director here at Eden Scott. This is your essential guide to navigating the ever-changing world of human resources and recruitment. We chat with industry leading figures to give you the inside track on growing and developing the very best teams. Today we chatted with Andy Williamson, the founder of Welcome Brain, an organization set up to help businesses create a neurodiversity friendly environment where they can attract and retain neurodivergent thinkers. Hi, welcome back to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast Today we're John by Andy Williamson from Welcome Brain. Andy, great to have you with us.
Andy (00:58):
Thanks for having me.
Ewan (01:00):
Yeah, good. Andy, do you want to tell us a bit about why, a bit of your background and also just a wee bit about Welcome Brain please?
Andy (01:08):
Yeah, well thanks for the introduction. So I'm Andy. I run Welcome Brain and what we are is a neurodiversity consultancy. We're based at Edinburgh and we help organizations become more inclusive. And how I got into that, I've been working with Neurodivergent individuals for about 10 years now. I came at it through education. So I ran an education business that specialized in working with students who were neurodivergent and I saw working with them one-on-one. The capacity that students have, if you tailor what the information is that you're giving them to their specific learning style, it's amazing how students who struggle in school, who struggle in classroom environments can really thrive if you just alter the way you give them the information. I recently sold that education business, and so I said, well, what comes next? And it's a logical progression to me. It seems like students who go through school, they get extra time in their exams, they get these accommodations that helps them with their neurodivergence then go into the world of work and there's practically no support for 'em at all. So that is the genesis of Welcome Brain. That's how I came about it, is it's a way that we can help organizations create inclusive environments. And the basic premise is we help organizations tailor to meet the individuals that work within them rather than expecting the individuals to fit the institution.
(02:26):
And the basic premise, basic theme and thesis that we have is that a neuro inclusive business is a good business. It's more profitable, you retain employees better and employees are happier. So yeah, that's what we do.
Ewan (02:38):
Brilliant. So let's start right back at the start. What is neurodiversity? Can you give us a bit of an introduction as to what that means?
Andy (02:48):
Yeah, so neurodiversity is a term that refers to lots of different ways of thinking. So neurodiversity includes people who are neurotypical who think it's sort of typical ways, but it also includes people who maybe have a DHD who are autistic who dyslexic or dyspraxic, something like that. So it's a range of neurological conditions and someone who is neurodivergent is somebody who deviates from what we think of as typical and maybe has a condition, one of the ones I've just mentioned.
Ewan (03:17):
Okay. So do you think companies or enough companies certainly have a good understanding, a good grasp of that and understand how to help people flourish in that space?
Andy (03:28):
Well, I mean I think this is the basis of our company, so I don't think I would admit it even if every company had inclusion down pat, but I think the companies are getting there definitely. And I think that there's a societal push towards inclusion. I think there's a generational element to it. I think that millennials, but particularly Gen Zs in the workforce are now much more of with a lot of the terminology of neurodiversity. And as these cohorts age into the workforce, they're going to start demanding more and companies will be better at it. I think generally society is getting there. I think now just because of the numbers involved, about 20% of the population is neurodivergent. So it means most people know somebody who is neurodivergent one in five people. So most people have firsthand experience of it. So yeah, I think there's a better understanding of it, but that's not the same as companies actually acting on it and putting those structures in place that are needed.
Ewan (04:26):
Well, so I suppose that was my next question is what do you think it is that's challenging the companies that think it is a lack of understanding or maybe a fear of getting it wrong, do you think? What's stopping them from taking that next step? I guess?
Andy (04:39):
So I think in a lot of companies there's an element of diversity fatigue where business owners, HR managers think, well, this is just the next thing coming down the pipeline. This is just another thing I have to deal with, deal with. I think that neurodiversity suffers a little bit because it is an invisible diversity and it's not like gender diversity or racial diversity. It's something that some employees might not be forthcoming about sharing. So companies might not have the knowledge of what the actual issue is. I do think that in general there is sort a bit of a knowledge gap as well. And I think that you're right that companies are not willing to dip their toe into it because they are scared of getting it wrong. It can seem really fractal when it comes to neuro inclusion. You think, well, if we make these accommodations for this sort group, then this group is going to want things as well.
(05:30):
And every person who is neurodivergent is very much an individual, so requires quite specific accommodation. So I think that there is an element that companies are daunted by it, but I mean, what we always say is that it's very much a situation where perfect is the enemy of good, and you can actually solve 80% of your problems with some really, really simple inclusive changes that actually don't cost very much money or very much labor. You can make your organization pretty inclusive quite quickly. And I think that that's the message that we keep trying to get across is that, yeah, it does seem daunting and imposing and you are going to get it wrong, but it's a lot easier than you think it is.
Ewan (06:07):
So let's maybe take it back just a step then and just understand the challenges from someone who, from a neurodivergent background, what are the sort of challenges that they might face in perhaps applying for a job or once they enter role, what sort of things are they facing?
Andy (06:21):
I mean, it's really kind of myriad challenges that they face. And again, every neurodivergent person is in an individual. So this is the old saying that if you've met one neurodivergent person, you've met one neurodivergent person. So everybody has different experiences, but there are some sort of commonalities. And the biggest one straight off the bat is that just not getting hired. So the unemployment rate for autistic people in the UK is five times higher than neurotypical people. So a lot of autistic people just aren't getting hired, and that's because interviews come down to soft skills often they come down to a lot of skills that divergent people sometimes struggle with. And so that's when we're working with a business, that's one of the first things that we change to try and make the more inclusive. And that's something that again, you can change quite easily.
(07:12):
And then once a neurodivergent person has been hired, the big dilemma is do they out themselves as neurodivergent or do they continue to keep it to themselves? And both of those options are very workable, but that is genuinely a dilemma faced by neurodivergent people and that shapes their experience within an organization. And then it's things like the office environment, what's the lighting, what are the distractions? What's the onboarding process? What are the work from home policies? All of the things that actually, again, those are not exclusive to neurodivergent people. Those are also things that neurotypical people base as well. So ultimately what a lot of it comes down to is personalization, understanding, empathy, those are the things that good managers do to create a inclusive environment.
Ewan (08:00):
So just to think about that and going slightly off our questions here, but just in terms of that application process, you said people just don't get hired. How could a company not avoid that, but how could a company guard against that and that somebody coming into that process, their interview process, they could adapt that slightly? How could they go about that?
Andy (08:24):
There's a few, again, really simple things that you can do. So the language of the job posting, one of the first things you can look at, every company likes to use these sort of filler words or filler phrases. They describe their company as dynamic and ever changing, fast growing, all of these things that make your company sound cool, that don't really mean anything. But really those are quite off-Putting phrases to somebody who, for example, maybe is autistic because somebody who, let's say again, someone who is autistic may like regularity and stability, and a company that's dynamic and ever changing doesn't sound like a very regular dynamic company. So they think, well, this is maybe not for me. This sounds a bit scary. So the first thing is make sure that the language of your job posting is inclusive. And again, that's something that we help companies build templates for that just so that it is all inclusive. Then the actual interview process itself, I think that this is actually something that cuts a bit deeper than just neuro inclusion. I think this is actually a wider business principle because it's very rare that what you select for in an interview is what the job actually requires.
Ewan (09:32):
So
Andy (09:33):
I mean, you're in this industry, but how often does an interview come down to how well do you come up with a spontaneous answer to a difficult question? And it's very often that is what determines it, and that is actually a very rare skill to utilize in a job. So something like sending your interview questions in advance is going to make your process a lot more inclusive. And we've had pushback from companies and they say, well, it just means they're going to look up the answers and do all that. But that's what you want an employee to do. You want 'em to research and you want 'em to be diligent and be prepared like you would in a meeting. So all you're going to start doing is selecting for people who have those skills rather than spontaneity or improvisation skills or good soft skills. And again, you're just connecting better with what you are selecting for in an interview with what the job will actually entail. And then you can look at things like the onboarding process and all of those, but those are the simple things you can do straight away.
Ewan (10:31):
And so I suppose once they get the job, assuming they get the job, what sort of things, I mean we're looking for to help people that understand how to make that working environment a bit more inclusive, a bit more welcoming so that people can come and flourish in the workplace and bring their whole self to work and ensure that they can add value to the company. So what sort of things our companies should they be looking out for? What sort of things could they do to try and make that a more inclusive environment?
Andy (11:00):
I mean, it's really the first thing to do is to do an audit of your processes. So what are the structures? What does the onboarding process look like at your work? What's the relationship between managers and team leaders or team members? What are the grievance processes like? I would start with it with an audit of that, but I think also it's important to speak to your existing team as well. So this is definitely sort of a conversation that needs to happen. And the thing is, once you start this conversation, often you'll find that there are more neurodivergent people in your company than you expected. So neurodivergent people sort of already walk amongst this, but oftentimes they mask and they're not super forthcoming because they don't feel it's a great environment. But actually once you start off having these conversations and saying, well, what do you think about this policy that we have in office?
(11:53):
What do you think about this policy? You'll find that people start to say, well, actually my own preferred way of working, I don't like to do this. And it becomes a lot more collaborative, and that's really one of the best ways to do it structurally. Something that I always suggest to organizations is that they shift the way they think about their employees from process based to outcome based. And this is a mindset shift. So you think about how we quantify employees success and we say, well, we look at what hours were you in the office? Do you follow the dress code? What's your conduct? Are you a culture fit? Those are all process driven judgments about how you operate within the environment. But actually if you look at outcome driven, did you complete the work on time and to the requisite standard, that's ultimately what we should be focusing on.
(12:46):
And it's very funny to me when I work with organizations because so many organizations have an output driven approach when they work with contractors in their organization and freelancers, but they don't apply that to their own employees. And that mindset shift is really huge when it comes to neuro inclusion. I mean, the essence of neuro inclusion is we don't care how you get there or what you do. You do what you are best at in the way that you work best, just as long as you're delivering the work. That's really the key metric or the KPI or whatever that we really care about.
Ewan (13:17):
I think that's interesting. There's a change in mindset, I think, amongst a lot of companies to move towards that output driven, the move away from presenteeism, the Asian working practices now that people are working from home a wee bit more, and perhaps that is helping people from a divergent background to be able to flourish. But I think sometimes, just to go back a wee bit on your point there is just to say almost it's unseen for a long time. So I suppose it's trying to create that open environment where people do feel comfortable to say, listen, this isn't quite right for me. But also a manager or a leader being able to say, okay, let's have the discussion. Let's work out the best way for you to give your best work to do your best to do best at work. Does that come from the top? Does that come from leadership?
Andy (14:06):
Yeah, it has to. Absolutely. The conditions are always set top down. So I think that this is something that has to come from managers. And I think the ultimate goal, Nirvana, the highest level of enlightenment you can reach of neuro inclusion is actually having a sort of post disclosure world where all employees can work on their own terms. They don't have to disclose, okay, I have a DHD bring in a doctor's note and say, I'm allowed to do this or this. I think ultimately what you want to do is get to a situation where all employees, they don't have to disclose, there's no questions. They have access to these accommodations. And there are companies in Scotland that already do this, and it's incredible when you go and visit their offices, how productive are and how, I mean, they look kind of ragtag when you go and visit them because there's just people walking around and there's a swing in the office that people are just on. These are big companies as well. But what you'll find is that people don't have to say, well, I have this condition, therefore I require this accommodation. It's a lot more people are allowed to operate on their own terms, and that is a culture thing. And culture always comes from managers and team leaders.
Ewan (15:21):
So it is quite a shift for a lot of people. So how do we help people to do that? Because I know there's a traditional mindset sometimes of there's a swing in the office, how much work are you actually getting done? But is it having the right systems in place to be able to say, look, really starting from the top and saying, this is our ultimate aim.
Andy (15:42):
How
Ewan (15:42):
Do we get there? Let's work on it. Each different team is going to work in a different way. I can understand it being a challenge for some people just to really wrap their head around that. So is it just open yourself up to a new way of working and really understanding that, because I think there's a fear for some people, isn't it to say, look, when the numbers are not working, there's a nervousness that says the numbers or the outputs aren't quite there. We'll go back to presenteeism, we'll go back to people in the office. We'll go back to strict working processes where you have to beat your laptop and you have to be here for eight hours a day and whatever it might be. It's that leap of faith, isn't it? Almost for a lot of people, a lot of managers who perhaps been in a more traditional operation. Is it just that help from a welcome brain point of view? Is that part of what you do when you go in there? It's just to help, whether it's HR professionals or whether it's just managers at a senior level being able to say, look, it can work. You've just got to take that leap of faith.
Andy (16:36):
Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, that's right. And I do get it that it is scary. The fact that I said, put a swing in your office, that's not the first step that we advocate. And it sounds like all of those insufferable.com companies that all put slides in their office or whatever or whatever, napping areas or anything like that. So that's not the first thing that we tell a company to do when we go into, I dunno, like a seven person accountant's office or anything like that.
(17:05):
But you can definitely do it in baby steps. And again, most of what we advocate for doesn't cost anything to implement, and it doesn't even require that much work. But it is an element of a leap of faith. And again, it just sounds like, obviously I'm trying to justify this because I'm a consultant in this field, but one of the first things we say to organizations is that NASA deliberately hire neurodivergent people because of the strengths that they bring. They more than 50% of employees at NASA are neurodivergent. So whatever the importance of your organization or whatever they do, it's not as difficult and as important as what NASA do. There's a real business case behind this. So if we say you're never going to get organizations buy-in, particularly senior leaders, board members, C-suite level people without making the business case for this. And that's what we go in with and that's how we encourage 'em to do this. So there's lots of statistics that show that your business will be improved if you are neuro inclusive. So I mean, just think about hiring your area of expertise, recruitment. If you are not hiring neuro inclusively, then you're only appealing to 80% of the population.
(18:26):

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